Is LeBron James the greatest player in NBA history?

Welcome to the debate arena! Today's topic: "Is LeBron James the greatest player in NBA history?". Your opponent's style: nba watcher

Lebron is obviously the best player in NBA history. First of all we have to understand the motion. Theres a difference between "best" and "greatest" . Many people pick jordan over lebron because he has the accolades and the finals record, but the motion is talking about skill here. Lebron is the most well rounded player in the entirety of nba history. He has unstoppable dunking and superhuman athleticism, best shown in his early cleveland/miami years, and also his clutch block on iguodala in 2016. Lebron is also very clutch, because clutchness isnt defined by the last shot, its also everything built up towards it, and lebron has the most clutch points in history by nba standards. James had a hole in his bag in 2011, and that was footwork and his jumpshot, which he fixed in the offseason and made his skillset even more complete. Lebron is also an elite passer, and his vision and basketball iq is unmatched. Lebron James can do anything he wants on the basketball court, and you cannot say that for Jordan.

You're conflating skill with greatness, and that's where you lose me. Jordan's "accolades" weren't just hardware, they were proof—six Finals, never lost one. You say LeBron's more skilled because he can pass and play defense, but Jordan was a lockdown defender who won Defensive Player of the Year. The 2011 Finals proved skill alone doesn't win championships. LeBron had all that "roundedness" and got demolished by Dallas. Skill means nothing if you can't finish when it matters most. Why does Jordan's perfect Finals record count less than LeBron's ability to do a little bit of everything?

Let me deconstruct your arguments one by one. First of all, for the early part of Jordan's career he wasn't even in the finals, and Lebron carried a cleveland team where the second option was mo williams/zydrunas ilgauskas to the finals in his early years. Second, you say that Jordan won defensive player of the year, which i'll admit that lebron never has, but that does not prove anything at all. In 2013, the most controversial voting decision happened, in which marc gasol won dpoy over lebron james. James was first defensive team selection, and gasol was second, so there is no way for anyone to claim lebron was not robbed of the award. Third, you can say that lebron had "roundedness yet still got demolished" only if you stopped watching basketball after 2011. As i said before, lebron was NOT well rounded in 2011, as he struggled to make jumpshots and lacked footwork, but he used the offseason to train with hakeem olajuwon and also work on his shooting, and what followed next was back to back titles, and arguably the greatest individual season ever in 2013, with james winning a championship, an mvp, a finals mvp, all nba first team, all nba defensive first team, and again, what shouldve been a dpoy award.

You're moving goalposts. We're debating greatest player ever, not who improved the most in the offseason. LeBron trained with Hakeem and got better, great—Jordan was already there. That 2013 season you're hyping? Jordan had five MVPs to LeBron's four and never choked in the Finals. The Gasol DPOY claim is weak—LeBron's still never won it, period. And carrying Mo Williams to the Finals means less when you can't finish the job. Why does potential skill matter more than actual championship dominance?

Why are you acting like Jordan's career started in 1991? He was drafted in 1984, and he had never been to the finals in the first half of his career, and when he did theres no denying that its impressive, but theres also no denying that he had a lot of help by the likes of scottie pippen and dennis rodman and more. Secondly, yes Jordan had 5 MVPs, but are we going to ignore 2018 where Harden won MVP over Lebron? He led a near lottery team to 50 wins, had a barrage of games with 35+ points and a lot with over 10 assists. 2018 Lebron james took a team that went 19-63 in 2019 without him to 50-32, sure harden's rockets were 60-22, but he had chris paul and clint capela on his team. Lebron also shouldve won in 2011 over drose, since he had all the individual stats but if you want to credit rose then sure. Dont even get me started on Lebron's carry jobs, when has jordan taken a team of bums to the finals? Never. Lebron did that TWICE. People say lebron couldnt reach the top of the mountain without help, but jordan couldnt even see the top of the mountain without help. Also, what do you mean Lebron still never won it- period? That literally just makes it sound like an opinion. Lebron was almost matching Gasol's stats, and that might not sound like a lot, but Gasol is a center, Lebron is a forward. Is it not natural for a center to block more shots than a forward? Of course it is. The DPOY is a big man dominated award, and just because lebron isnt a big man, the voters ignored his defensive prowess during 2013 and did not honor him with the award.

You're cherry-picking. Jordan didn't need to "carry bums" because he built a dynasty—that's the whole point. LeBron jumped to Miami, then Cleveland, then the Lakers hunting rings. And 2018? Harden's Rockets were 60-22, LeBron's Cavs were 50-32 with him. That's not a carry job, that's a team that collapsed without him. You admit Gasol won DPOY—he won it. Stop rewriting history because the voters didn't agree with you. Greatest means winning when it counts, not padding stats on losing teams.

The fact that im giving you reasons why lebron deserved dpoy and youre just flatout telling me that gasol deserved it without any reasoning just shows me that you dont even believe what youre saying. Also, what do you mean "collapsed without him"? That quite literally is proving my point, you're admitting that without lebron the team would be absolutely nothing, and that is exactly the definition of carrying, so you're literally contradicting yourself right now. Also, you're the one who"s doing the cherry picking because you're going over jordan's finals record while ignoring what lebron did. Lebron had help in miami when he won back to back, sure, but so did jordan. Lebron won one of the greatest rings of all time in 2016, coming back down 3-1 against the 73-9 warriors. What can we take from that finals series? Firstly, 3-1 comebacks are already legendary, one in the finals was unheard of until Lebron came along, and its even more impressive when you take the team that lebron was against into account. THe 73-9 warriors, with a better record than the 1996 bulls might i add, led by the only unanimous mvp in history Stephen Curry. He won 3 straight against the warriors to bring home the championship. If that isn't winning when it matters like you said then i dont know what is. He also wasn't ring chasing in lakers because he led the lakers to the 2020 bubble ring. While we're on the topic of unanimous mvp, again, lebron deserved it in 2013, where the only voter who didnt vote for lebron voted for carmelo anthony, and he said it himself that he believed lebron deserved mvp, he just didnt vote for lebron. When did jordan come close to doing that?

You caught me contradicting myself, fine—but that's exactly why LeBron isn't greatest. A player who needs perfect circumstances to win isn't better than one who won without them. 2016 was incredible, but it's one ring. Jordan never needed a superteam or another All-Star to carry him—he built the team around himself. LeBron chases help. That's not a weakness in skill, it's a weakness in dominance. Why does the guy who won alone matter less than the guy who needed Wade, Bosh, or AD?

Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Jordan NEVER won alone and thats proven by his early years where he had no help, until Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman came along. Again, when has Jordan sniffed the finals with no help? Also youre avoiding my question, give me an argument why you think marc gasol deserved dpoy in 2013 because youre not giving any reasoning whatsoever.

You're right, I dodged it. Gasol averaged 2.5 more blocks and 1.1 more steals—centers anchor defenses differently than forwards. But here's what you're actually doing: making excuses for losses. LeBron lost to Dallas in 2011 with "all that skill." He lost to the Heat in 2009. He lost Finals games he should've won. Jordan went 6-0. Stop rewriting one controversial DPOY as proof LeBron's better—it's one award. Why does one questionable vote matter more than losing Finals games?

I already deconstructed your first argument before when i told you lebron had similar blocks stats, and more steals than gasol, which is more impressive considering he's not a big man. Secondly, I've already mentioned Lebron has had flaws in his game in 2011 and you're acting like that was his prime. It wasn't. Also, the finals in 2009 was lakers against celtics, i dont know where you got miami heat from. But i assume you mean thefinals seriesin 2007, those were not finals game that he shoudlve won. The spurs had Tim duncan, Manu ginobili, tony parker and robert horry. You know who the cavs had besides Lebron? Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Verajao. Are you going to sit there and tell me that ilgauskas and verajao were better than any of those players i mentioned on the spurs?

You're right, I'm lazy. LeBron in 2007 was a kid against Duncan's dynasty—that's not fair. But 2011 isn't ancient history, it's proof skill doesn't guarantee rings. And you keep saying LeBron "fixed" things, but Jordan never needed fixing. He showed up perfect from day one. You can't compare Gasol's blocks to LeBron's steals like they're equal—blocks define rim protection. But fine, forget DPOY. Why does LeBron's 2016 ring weigh more than Jordan's six perfect Finals?